Source: TW
Third person Ishvara
Two most intriguing श्लोक-s, where कृष्ण refers to ईश्वर in the 3rd person.
ईश्वरः सर्वभूतानां हृद्देशेऽर्जुन तिष्ठति ।
भ्रामयन्सर्वभूतानि यन्त्रारूढानि मायया ॥१८.६१॥
तमेव शरणं गच्छ सर्वभावेन भारत ।
तत्प्रसादात्परां शान्तिं स्थानं प्राप्स्यसि शाश्वतम् ॥१८.६२॥
विश्वास-टिप्पनी
Natural explanation for the use of the term “Ishvara” is simple, looking at the previous words -
करिष्यस्य् अवशोऽपि तत्
+++(यतः)+++ ईश्वरः सर्व-भूतानां
हृद्-देशेऽर्जुन तिष्ठति।
भ्रामयन् सर्वभूतानि
यन्त्रारूढानि मायया॥
Meaning - you’ll do it because the lord controller (literal meaning of Ishvara), who is your heart, controls you.
One doesn’t need to move beyond this simple literal meaning to understand the usage of the term Ishvara.
Usage of 3rd person in such a context does not necessarily imply that the speaker is not that third person. Just because one says “soul controls the body”, one isn’t saying “I’m not soul”. Or “it’s the commander’s job to direct his soldiers” doesn’t mean one’s not the commander.
Now, just from this, Ishvara can be a qualifier of “वासुदेव”,
or more bizarrely “श्रीकण्ठरुद्र” or some such separate entity. The natural thing would be to decide from other statements in the same chapter/ portion (prakaraNa), rather than jumping to upamanyUpAkhyAna or some anugIta retort.
Now who is this Ishvara?
Straight reading from BG context is that
Ishvara is vAsudeva = “I, kRShNa” (eg. गीता 15।15).
The first words of 18.61 are from ईशान-मन्त्र of the पंचब्रह्म—“…ईश्वर: सर्वभूतानां…”., giving us a लिंगपदानि (words that indirectly indicate) for who this ईश्वर really is.
The fact that this “ईश्वर” is said to attach souls to their “यन्त्र-s” (तनु-करण-भुवन) in 18.61 & also grant them शान्ति in 18.62 reminds one of the आगमवाक्य quoted in several works: “अनुग्रहतिरोभावौ द्वौ पाशौ तु सदाशिवे”. Grace & veiling are the 2 bonds सदाशिव has (controls).
रूपम् ऐश्वरम्
The similar imagery of रुद्र-s revolving beings in the wheel of संसार, at शिव’s command, is found in मृगेन्द्रागम. Even when he takes upon the fierce विश्वरूपम् that swallows & destroys everyone even before the war starts; what does he say to अर्जुन?
एवमेतद् यथाऽऽत्थ त्वमात्मानं परमेश्वर।
द्रष्टुमिच्छामि ते रूपमैश्वरं पुरुषोत्तम ॥ ३ ॥ … न तु मां शक्यसे द्रष्टुमनेनैव स्वचक्षुषा ।
दिव्यं ददामि ते चक्षुः पश्य मे योगमैश्वरम् ॥
Vișņu Pervasiveness
- Vișņu (even the one of the lower level) does have an extensive level of pervasiveness. So, there is nothing strange in his proclaiming that he resides in every creature.
Union with shiva
- Krșņa was in a state of union with Śiva (Parabrahma) when he was delivering the Gītā. There is again his express statement later in the Mbh, where he states to Arjuna (who asks him to repeat the discourse) that it is not possible for him to repeat the whole of the Gītā, which he says that he recited in a state of yoga with Parabrahma—again, a 3rd person reference: see this: https://x.com/ishac59815/status/1797255317434314868?s=46
विश्वास-टिप्पनी
न शक्यं … वक्तुम् = I can’t tell, not “it’s impossible to tell”. Only upon inserting “परब्रह्मणा (योगयुक्त)” would you get “YogaYukt with the supreme Brahman” - not the natural reading of the text. Further, you need to insert “because”.
Simple read -“in the state of union”
Meta-Boons
- If you read the broader MBH as well as Harivamśa, you will find a passage stating that Śrīkaņțharudra gave a set of exceedingly powerful boons to Vișņu, which effectively allows Vișņu to appear glorious and superior vis-a-vis Śrīkaņțharudra (not yet higher Rudras or Paramaśiva, whom the boons do not bind). So, even Vișņu’s granting boons can easily be swallowed up by the meta-boons granted by Rudra in the Mahābhārata itself.
विश्वास-टिप्पनी
meta-boons granted by Rudra
There’s the meta-boon in nArAyaNIya with viShNu granting rudra boon-granting power + explains shiva’s boon-granting to him as an act he directs.
So, SV view - viShNu generated shiva; and authorized him to grant boons per nArAyaNIya (and even to direct mumuxu-s towards viShNu - vide rAma-tAraka). To ensure that shiva is venerated by appropriate adhikAris, he set an example by propitiating Shiva himself.
After brahma and rudra did tapas in xIra-sAgara, vAsudeva grants -
यूयं लोकान् भावयध्वं
यज्ञभागफलोचिताः ॥ …
अस्य चैवानुजो रुद्रः
ललाटाद्यस् समुत्थितः ।
ब्रह्मानुशिष्टो भविता
सर्वभूत-वर-प्रदः ॥
Later still, clarifies -
अहम् आत्मा हि लोकानां
विश्वेषां पाण्डु-नन्दन ॥ २३ ॥
तस्माद् आत्मानम् एवाग्रे
रुद्रं सम्पूजयाम्य् अहम् ।
3 यद्य् अहं नार्चयेयं वै
ईशानं वरदं शिवम् ॥ २४ ॥
आत्मानं+++(=शरीरं)+++ नार्चयेत् कश्चिद्
इति मे भावितात्मनः ।
मया प्रमाणं हि कृतं
लोकः समनुवर्तते ॥ २५ ॥ …
न हि मे केनचिद् देयो
वरः पाण्डव-नन्दन ।
इति सञ्चिन्त्य मनसा
पुराणं रुद्रम् ईश्वरम् ॥ २८ ॥
पुत्रार्थम् आराधितवान्
अहम् आत्मानम् आत्मना+++(=शरीरेण)+++ ।+++(5)+++
न हि विष्णुः प्रणमति
कस्मैचिद् विबुधाय च ॥ २९ ॥
ऋते आत्मानम् एवेति
ततो रुद्रं भजाम्यहम्।
Is there a meta-meta-boon you’re referring to? Can you quote?
hariharAbheda ok
so, from shaiva perspective, at best the 3rd person reference implies hari-harAbheda-vAda, which is apasiddhAnta for you (+ unnatural to the broader MBh describing one granting boon to another and such).
- Hariharābheda does not faze me because it’s possible to conceive abheda in a sense between Śrīkaņțharudra and Vișņu/Krșņa (and even here, there are multiple levels)—Paramaśiva is not even involved here since He is beyond all this.
विश्वास-टिप्पनी
Exactly 1 Ishvara per BG. So 18.62 Ishvara = Vișņu/kR trivially. If by 3rd person, Ishvara = Śrīkaņțharudra or paramashiva or … then that person = Vișņu - not “in a sense”, but absolutely (per unforced reading). Not apasiddhAnta?
You are forgetting a point that I have made here many times: Siddhānta has a very baroque Tāratamya that covers devas and texts. It is not bothered by the presence of Hariharābheda in a text or Hari granting boons or Hari defeating Śrīkaņțharudra in some story. Paramaśiva remains untouched due to His radical transcendence and even sāmānya Śāstras give us enough resources to explain the stories involving Hari and lower Śiva’s/Rudras, like pointed out in No.2 above.